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Editorial:
Thinking about the common good? From
the director: Untold stories Faith
and Politics After Christendom Comment:
Doing the Right Thing Give
Generously and Change the World? Economics
and the Common Good Interview
with Jim Wells (MLA): Polishing our Cars Review:
No Longer Strangers Division
and Diversity: Churches in a plural society Buying
in - Opting out Interview
with Fr Mariusz Dabrowski: Meet the neighbours Questions
& Answers: Reader survey responses Review:
Mark: Gospel of Action Bible
Study: The Common Good Difficult
Conversations: Let's talk about tax... |
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AR: Why did you get into politics? JW: I often ask myself that question! I think it’s in the blood, like being a fisherman or a farmer, politicians are born politicians. If you have a deep interest in it, almost an obsession, and any ability at all, you work hard within your party and get elected. I was 23 when I got elected, which shocked me and a few other people. You have to be seriously interested in politics to do it. If you aren’t, you won’t last. What drives me now? I like the constituency work enormously. There are times when you can make a huge difference in someone’s life. Though lots of times you don’t. Obviously I have a strong Unionist conviction and a strong Protestant evangelical conviction, which I have an opportunity to express in my role as a politician. AR: What are the current big issues for the political parties in Northern Ireland? JW: I don’t believe the conditions are right for a return to devolved government on Monday or anything near it. We are dealing with people who have supported, organised, apologised for and given political cover for a campaign of torture in this community for the last 35 years and I have a great problem with that. AR: What is the alternative? JW: We [need to] continue negotiations to get a lasting and secure settlement not go in with a gun held to our heads and threats of water charging and a new ratings system. I believe it should be a lasting relationship built on a sound basis, not a shotgun wedding. Until the outstanding issues are sorted out any kind of devolved government in Northern Ireland will be inherently unstable. A solution that collapses in four months does nothing for the common good or for bringing about a permanent settlement. It’s not an issue of deadlines; it’s an issue of delivery. Progress has been made, and Sinn Féin has made small, faltering steps towards becoming a democratic constitutional party and we welcome that. We are getting there, but we’ll not be there by Monday. Decommissioning hasn’t been tied down properly, the IRA army council is still there, we haven’t got the parades issue sorted out. We have to deal with these issues otherwise it will be a battle a day. And you can guarantee that some major rabbit is going to come out of the hat, like a Northern Bank, Stormontgate or the Columbia Three, which will undermine the basis of that devolved settlement. After Stormontgate the only way that Sinn Féin could be excluded from government was for all the institutions to be brought down. If the Assembly collapses again it will be for 20 or 30 years. We’re fighting for a mechanism that excludes the terrorists until they get their act together. Until then democracy goes ahead without them and that’s the only way it can be done. In any other western democracy they would be immediately voted out of government. In Northern Ireland the Sinn Féin vote rises. So the normal democratic controls don’t apply in this situation. These operations were sanctioned at the highest level. Sinn Féin is still tainted by association with criminality, gangsterism and worse. It is totally unacceptable for any party that is linked to terrorism to be in the government of this province. AR: And that goes for the PUP too? JW: Absolutely. You can’t say it’s all right to accept Protestant terrorists into government and not accept Catholic terrorists. As a democrat, if I disagree with you the only weapon that I should have is the right to send you a flyer, stick an ad in the paper or post you a leaflet. AR: But if you are rejecting the democratic mandate of elected politicians you are cutting off that peaceful alternative? JW: Hitler had a democratic mandate far stronger than Sinn Féin ever had. Fifty-two percent of the German people voted for him in 1933. He had a mandate for expansionism, murdering Jews and for a totalitarian regime. The fact that people vote for you does not make it acceptable; you have to test what they voted for. Unfortunately, over half the Roman Catholic population have voted for a campaign of violence and terror against my community. AR: They have said that is in the past now. JW: I am not convinced of that. AR: What will it take to convince you? JW: Total decommissioning. If I see the inventory of weapons manifest on the floor of a warehouse I will begin to think that things have moved on. I want the return of the £26 million stolen from the Northern Bank and Sinn Féin IRA to disown the large number of their members involved in diesel laundering, drug smuggling and racketeering. I want absolute proof and have a testing period so that I can sit back and see that it is all happening. I am not interested in a form of words; I want to see genuine delivery. We had a great fanfare that Sinn Féin now supports the police – but only civic policing. If Bernadette loses her handbag, does she go to the police? Yes she does. But if she sees an IRA armalite in the ditch she doesn’t. You can’t pick and choose – if the message is, “You go to the police no matter what the crime is” then I’ll begin to think they mean business. They still have this hint of being able to use violence as well as the political process, and that is not acceptable to me. I don’t trust them. Progress is being made, but I don’t think we are there yet. AR: How do you see yourself and your party contributing to a society, which is an inclusive society for all? JW: People often misunderstand the DUP. Many days on constituency work in South Down I never see a single Protestant. On day-to-day bread and butter issues we are working for the entire community and we would like to think we have a record second to none in representing everyone. We don’t make a big song and dance about this but we are heavily involved in community relations. In my own council we have a very strong community relation’s branch and we do lots of things on a cross-community basis and have absolutely no difficulties with that. AR: Have rural communities retained stronger community values, a stronger sense of the common good? JW: In rural areas, particularly those not directly affected by IRA terrorism, community relations have always been better than in urban areas. There are mixed communities where everyone gets on. In rural towns, while people might live separately, there is still a lot of communal activity together. But in some rural areas you’ve had a complete ethnic cleansing of the Protestant community, places like Fermanagh, South Armagh and West Tyrone, which hasn’t happened to Catholic rural residents. It’s easy to have good community relations in Crossmaglen or Belleek or Garrison, for instance, because there are no Protestants left. I don’t see this as a fight between two tribes; I see this as an ongoing onslaught by Sinn Féin IRA against the Protestant community. If you had a just solution, an agreement with everyone on an equal footing and committed to peaceful and democratic means, without violence or the threat of violence, community relations will develop naturally. I don’t think you have to develop a policy for it. People will feel safer and much more confident in their position. Northern Ireland people are quite gregarious and inevitably people will become much more mixed. But it is very difficult to encourage that when you still have the threat of violence hanging over you. It was the threat of violence that drove people apart. AR: What are the ways forward for areas where there is a higher level of sectarian violence? JW: The problem has sadly more or less solved itself in that the Protestant community has been forced out into areas where they feel safe. Northern Ireland is more segregated than it ever was. There isn’t much community tension if there isn’t much in the way of interface. Where you do get interface, you get problems. Middle-class areas and more affluent areas, particularly in Belfast, would be more moderate, places like the Malone Road, but working-class areas are much more straight down the line. AR: Are the increasing numbers of people from minority ethnic backgrounds moving into these areas changing communities? JW: We have a welcome increase in the number of ethnic minorities who, of course, don’t fit into our sectarian geography. And the Alliance party got an MLA elected in South Belfast. [Anna Lo] broke the mould. Though, there is a big ethnic group in South Belfast – if she has been able to get them registered and motivated to vote – that is a sizable vote, she has done well. She obviously had a tremendous advantage because she could speak to everybody who was Chinese in Chinese. It is a very welcome development but I don’t think that South Belfast is representative of Northern Ireland generally. develop naturally. I don’t think you have to develop a policy for it. People will feel safer and much more confident in their position. Northern Ireland people are quite gregarious and inevitably people will become much more mixed. But it is very difficult to encourage that when you still have the threat of violence hanging over you. It was the threat of violence that drove people apart. In South Down we have had a big influx of East Europeans but they are a bit more invisible because they don’t look differently to us. People don’t spot them as easily as if you are West Indian or Chinese. As a political force the ethnic minorities aren’t particularly strong because they don’t show a great deal of interest. A lot don’t register and a lot of those who do don’t vote. When you are around talking to the folk they really don’t know what is going on, particularly if their English isn’t too good. Plus they tend to be younger than the average [voter] profile and don’t generally stay more than a couple of years. There are a lot of East Europeans in the fish factories, who add tremendously to the economy. They are good news. I don’t subscribe to this nonsense, “They are taking away our jobs.” They aren’t, we can’t fill those jobs locally. But very few put down roots and stay long-term. Unlike the Chinese. Apart from South Belfast, I don’t think we are becoming a multicultural society in the way that parts of Dublin have, because it’s a transient workforce. AR: What about younger people, do you sense a disengagement with politics among those who don’t have any real memory of the Troubles at their worst? JW: Young people probably have more things on their minds than voting. When you settle down, get married and have a few kids, then you then tend to be more interested in voting. AR: How do you engage younger voters? JW: I don’t think you can. That’s a myth. Young people, by their very nature, are in a transient position for a few years where their priorities are totally different. Voter apathy among young people is inherent in every society. They do eventually vote – when people settle down they start to think, “What sort of society do I want?” The 17-25 year-olds are very difficult to win over, unless they are dedicated to the cause. The trick is to make certain that from 25 onwards they do vote. AR: As we tentatively move towards a local settlement do you think more global concerns are coming to the fore? JW: While we are wrapped up in our own difficulties in Northern Ireland the world could become a very hostile place for mankind. I see global climate change as the greatest single issue facing the world, including Northern Ireland. We can’t hide by saying, “We are a small country” – we have a carbon footprint way in excess of most parts of Western Africa. Northern Ireland could, but in my opinion won’t, lead the way on this because we are just so wedded to our cars and our use of energy and resources. It is very unpopular with my colleagues, and the country generally, to say that. I came to blows with my colleagues on the issue of export subsidies and the dumping of food on third world markets. I have seen the consequences of that first hand in sub-Saharan Africa where farming communities are being devastated by cheap imports. In June 2006, at a conference on third world issues, I was asked about my party’s policy on this issue. I said, “Party policy is that we support our local farmers, we do all we can to help them and should continue to pay export subsidies.” The killer question was, “Mr Wells, what do you think?” I find it totally morally objectionable. I resigned as a party spokesman on the environment because I could not continue to support that policy. If you are going to be a party spokesman, albeit a very minor one, you have to agree with party policy. I didn’t want a constant guerrilla war going on so the logical thing to do was to step down and not speak on behalf of the party on that issue again. I am now dealing with public accounts. AR: You weren’t tempted to go independent or join the Greens? JW: Independents get nowhere in Northern Ireland – you’d have no influence. Go independent and that’s the end of your political career. You can’t agree with your party on everything. AR: But if global climate change is, as you say, the greatest single issue facing the world and Northern Ireland? JW: Apart from Northern Ireland it is the issue for me. But it is the most important issue affecting the world at the moment. I haven’t changed my position, but as a party spokesman it was futile for me to put forward a policy saying we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions, help third world development and we can’t continue to destroy our environment, when that wasn’t the view of my party – or the vast majority of MLAs. I simply was out of line with everyone else. AR: The new Assembly has its first Green Party MLA, is that a hopeful sign? JW: I used to be one voice in the wilderness on environmental issues, now there’ll be two of us. Let’s not kid ourselves; this Assembly will not be green in any shape or form. There will be major conflict between global environmental issues and what the Northern Ireland Executive brings in. Environmental policy will be subservient to development in any Assembly. That’s quite clear on the issue of sewage disposal. Last time round we gave permission for towns to be linked into sewage systems that don’t work. I cannot envisage a time when a Northern Ireland Minister for Agriculture would resist export subsidies. And yet, if local agriculture in sub-Saharan Africa isn’t allowed to flourish and have a decent return you are forcing millions of people into abject poverty and dependence upon aid. The Assembly also opposed the climate change levy, when we have to reign in our energy use. We are desperately tied to our cars – it’s ingrained in the Ulster psyche. We have almost lost the habit of public transport. It is another legacy of the Troubles; you can understand it to an extent, it wasn’t safe. But lack of use has meant under investment in public transport and with greater affluence people became more and more used to their cars. In my view, the writing is on the wall. There are three theories: we’ve hit the tipping point and we are all doomed – you might just as well enjoy yourself and forget about future generations because we’re stuffed. And for most people in Northern Ireland it is, “Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow your soul is required.” People do not want to face up to the consequences of really taking action. Another theory is that it’s not happening, or it is but it’s not because of man’s intervention. Or people say, “Why should we do anything about it? China and India aren’t, why should we bother?” But we have to at least give a lead. We are producing a lot more carbon and methane than other countries which are poorer and that is morally indefensible. We’ll do something about it eventually, but it will be piecemeal. The Chancellor upped the tax on 4x4s yesterday to £400. Nobody who spends £52,000 on a vehicle, which does 19 miles to the gallon, is going to be put off by an extra £100 in tax. It won’t make any difference, but anything else will be politically unacceptable. We haven’t started to face up to the reality of what we need to do. Maybe that’s not surprising in Northern Ireland given that for 35 years people have been more concerned with their own survival and safety to be worried about other issues, such as the future of the planet. Devolution will be good for Northern Ireland, if it is a fair system, but it could be very bad for the environment. We are not yet a society that is mature enough to make the difficult decisions that we have to make. AR: What needs to be done? JW: Our coal-fired power station urgently needs a gas flue desulphurisation unit but people aren’t happy to pay the cost. We are not prepared to pay to bring our sewage system up to an acceptable level, or to forgo mass development in the countryside or our reliance on private transport. We have no lobby at all for countryside protection here. Most of the parties have said they should have an Environmental Protection Agency but I don’t think it will happen because the developers won’t let it. It’s unfortunate, but that’s democracy. As far as responsibility for the planet is concerned we should support PPS14, the policy that stops us covering the countryside with more bungalows. But the punters want bungalows, no question. In here there is no perception that PPS14 means more emissions and more damage to the environment. It’s just, “My voters want bungalows, so we’ll give them bungalows.” In a debate last June I dared to say that PPS14 may have some merit. I said, “Maybe we have gone too far. Maybe the fact that we build four times more bungalows than the rest of the UK put together is wrong. 52% of our septic tanks don’t actually work.” That was the most difficult week of my political career. I was absolutely savaged. My views are mainstream environmentally, but in here they are considered by some to be lunatic. I am heavily influenced by my two daughters who are very into fair-trade and third world development and have spent time overseas. They are up to their necks in Tearfund and sponsor children all over the world. Maybe I am being got at and maybe Carmel [Hanna] has had an influence on me also, I feel awfully concerned about these issues. AR: So these are the kind of political issues that interest younger voters? JW: Yes, but it hasn’t yet translated into a view within the Northern Ireland community. While they may be engaged it’s not filtering through the political system. Ok, it was notable that Brian Wilson got elected in North Down, but Brian brought a big personal vote with him, so I think it would be wrong to interpret it as a green vote. AR: Do you see environmental issues as something Christians should be leading the way on? JW: They should be, but they are not. I am a member of A Rocha, a group of evangelical Christians concerned about environmental issues. It hasn’t really taken off in Northern Ireland. The churches obviously aren’t really interested. Though, paradoxically, in Northern Ireland we are very generous when it comes to things like the Tsunami appeal and that sort of thing. AR: If people are convinced that politicians aren’t interested in environmental issues either it’s rather a chicken and egg situation, isn’t it? JW: Yes, but politicians will only become interested in environmental issues when people start to lobby them on these issues – but they don’t. 8,000 people objected to PPS14. 300 were in favour of it, so clearly the politicians saw where the votes were. There isn’t any real engagement yet. Maybe the public will begin to demand higher environmental and third world standards but these are not big-ticket items in Northern Ireland politics. The border, the constitution the future of a devolved settlement, security, parades, policing and jobs – all come way, way above these issues and there are really no votes in them at all. It doesn’t take a genius to work out that the world has finite resources. We cannot continue to gobble them up in the way we are doing and survive. Maybe we have to accept that we need to curtail our growth, flying to Switzerland for skiing, having three cars in the driveway, all mod cons in the house and burning fossil fuels. Is that a huge sacrifice to ask us to make? That is my personal view, but don’t kid yourself that that is the view of the people on the street. We are only where we are today is because of EC directives forcing us to start bringing our sewage up to standard because there will be huge fines if we don’t. Similarly, nitrates were another very controversial issue – animal waste going into the water supply – it never would have changed had the EC not told us to do it. But it is going to be very difficult politically to deliver anything self-generated. AR: What should we be doing? JW: People could join organisations like Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace and put pen to paper on environmental issues, but they don’t. I get more letters than most because of my interest, but it’s a tiny amount. Writing to me or ringing me is preaching to the converted. They really need to influence the people who haven’t a green interest. Did you know if we turned off every standby light in the UK we would close a power station? Over the Christmas holidays many computers in this building were left on because it’s no one’s responsibility to turn anything off, ever. I brought this up at the commission but people began to move further and further away from the table when I raised it. So you switch the copier off, go away for 10 days, and you switch it on again when you come back, what’s the problem with that? In the TV studios they do maybe five minutes of interviews a month, yet the air-conditioning is on night and day, 365 days a year. And the taxpayer is paying for it. When the local government ministers were here, every day a big car would do a round trip of 370 miles to pick up Mark Durkan, bring him here for meetings, drive him the whole way back and come back down again. It was a similar situation with Seán Farren in Portstewart and Sam Foster in Fermanagh. And there are 12 ministers. Now that in itself is not going to make the difference to global warming but it is absolutely dreadful as an example to the community. And the drivers sit outside in their cars with the engine running for the entire day, rather than come in and sit in a heated room. Is that not a waste of public money? If the scientists are right and this planet is going downhill quickly, then the entire community should be completely prioritising environmental protection, but we are not. But those are my personal views, not the views of the party. We’ll have to see what happens, whether we’ll be in government or not. I’ll certainly be voting “No” on Saturday, but I think I am going to lose. Those who want to go into government will prevail. This place is getting all geared up; each minister has been assigned their department. And all the drivers will no doubt be polishing their cars. JIM WELLS was interviewed by Anna Rankin in Parliament Buildings on 22nd March 2007. |
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