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DP: PAUL,
WHAT ARE THE DEFINING ELEMENTS of spirituality within the Roman
Catholic tradition?
PS: Spirituality
is the way Christ is formed within an individual and within the
community. This is done through prayer disciplines and the discipline
of corporate worship. In our tradition the central act of worship
is the Eucharist, the Lords Supper or the Mass. That is the
word most Roman Catholics use, it comes from the final words of
the liturgy, Ite missa est, which translated means Go,
she is sent, i.e. the congregation is sent. A lot of people
think that Mass refers to the actual liturgy, but its
not, its the command to mission that is the emphasis. You
come and you gather around the table of the Word, listen to the
Scriptures and partake of the sacrament. Then, having tasted Gods
love in that way and having literally incorporated it into yourself,
you are sent out into the world to share that love in the world
around you. In his book, Introduction to Christianity, Josef
Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict
XVI, makes the point that, because God has done everything for us
in Christ, the only possible response on our part is thanksgiving.
That, I think, is the preferred title of our central act of worship,
Eucharist. Thanksgiving for all that God has done for us in Christ.
The central
act of public worship is complemented by the Liturgy of the Hours,
which was developed in the monastic tradition. Taking very literally
what it says in Psalm 119, Seven times a day will I worship
you, the Liturgy of the Hours is celebrated seven times in
the day and is made up predominantly of Psalms. Here, not very many
Roman Catholics, ordinary parish people, would actually pray the
Liturgy of the Hours, it would tend to happen mainly in convents
and monasteries.
Another familiar
way a lot of Roman Catholics pray is the Rosary. The idea is that
you use the five decades of beads to occupy your body and say a
repetitive prayer to occupy the mind, but with your heart focused
on the central mysteries of salvation the birth, life, ministry,
death and resurrection of Jesus. The danger of the Rosary is of
course that it can become very mechanical, but I think the principle
behind it is very sound.
Lectio Divina,
the prayerful reading of Scripture, has become very popular among
Roman Catholics and is common now in most parishes. You take a passage
of Scripture, maybe working your way through a particular book of
the Bible, and read just a few verses, pause and let them sink in,
let the Spirit of God speak to you. God has an individual word for
each and every one of us through his universal Word. Lectio Divina
helps the individual get in tune with Gods will for their
life. I think corporately hearing the Word of God is something we
really need to work on, rather than seeing Bible-reading as essentially
individualistic.
Any Roman Catholic
faithfully going to church every Sunday gets a pretty big introduction
to the Scriptures because we have a three-year cycle. Year One is
the year of Matthew; were in Year Two at the moment, the year
of Mark, and Year Three is the year of Luke. Johns gospel
gets read every year during Lent and Easter. Each Sunday, a passage
from the Old Testament is chosen that fits in with the gospel passage
and then theres a second reading, which is the continuous
reading of all the other parts of the New Testament, so it is pretty
comprehensive.
DP: John,
within the Reformed tradition, what would be a definition of spirituality
and how would that be practised?
JD: We would
tend to think of spirituality more in terms of relationship with
God. The formal distinctives of Reformed spirituality would probably
revolve around four things. Number one is Scripture the Reformation
produced many commentary writings and there is a great emphasis
on biblical preaching, biblical theology that comes directly from
the centrality of Scripture and sense of being a people before God,
listening to his Word.
Secondly, the
knowledge of God and the knowledge of ourselves. Calvin says that
all true knowledge comes from the knowledge of God and the knowledge
of ourselves. So, in one sense, there is no distinction between
theology and science. The understanding of God, the understanding
of the world in which we live are two sides of the one coin.
Thirdly, another
emphasis is Luthers classic doctrine of the priesthood of
all believers. There are no distinctions between office holders,
clergy, pastoral staff and ordinary members of the church. All christians
are on the same footing before God, some have specific callings
or functions, but they all stand before God as one people.
The fourth
area is the area of lifestyle there is no distinction between
sacred and secular. The whole of life, the whole of the world, everything
that you are, is part of who you are as a person in a relationship
with God.
Those would
be the formal distinctives. However, as a person who grew up within
an evangelical branch of Protestantism, if I were to talk about
the distinctives I would say that spirituality revolves around conversion
the need to come to a crisis point in your life when you
choose Christ specifically and are transformed as a result of that
choice. Also, personal piety the call to have a life in which
personal prayer and devotional Scripture reading is a key part of
your psyche, informing who you are and how you live. Thirdly, worship
and witness belonging to a community within which you worship
God, and also the call to share that faith with others, to be a
witness in the world. Thats the kind of level of belonging,
thats how it feels.
DP: Paul,
could you say more about the disciplines that come from the monastic
tradition meditation, solitude, retreat how do those
practices work in spiritual formation in the Roman Catholic tradition?
PS: Ive
been formed on both Ignatian and Benedictine spirituality. Ignatian
spirituality is very evangelical, its totally scripturally
focused, mainly on the gospels and on gospel contemplation. You
dont just bring your mind to it, you bring the whole of your
body, the whole of your personality, to the contemplation, even
to the point of trying to put yourself into the picture and see
yourself as one of the characters or as somehow involved. In this
way what was part of Jesus life story or Jesus history
here on earth becomes a part of your own faith journey or your own
faith history, part of the process of forming Christ within you.
Benedictine
spirituality focuses on the Liturgy of the Hours, on sanctifying
the day by the praise of God through the Psalms and Lectio Divina,
the prayerful reading of Scripture. The Psalms are very earthy,
they are rooted in human experience and are packed full of human
emotions. In most of our churches those verses which seem a bit
violent or fierce, even whole Psalms, have been dropped out, but
not in the monastery. I think thats very healthy. Sometimes
when people come to me for spiritual direction and talk about anger,
I would refer them to maybe go and pray Psalm 108, one of the so-called
Cursing Psalms and actually use the Word of God to work
out a human emotion that we all know, but very often try to reject,
because we think its not nice for Christians to feel like
that. But we have to work through these emotions. The whole of life
and all the emotions are in the Psalms.
Visible, tangible
things are very important in Roman Catholic spirituality. We recognise
that we are not just pure spirits, we are body and spirit and God
speaks to us through the visible and tangible like church
art. Im not greatly into the statues but I am very fond of
icons. Icons arent painted, they are written in
a very hallowed and traditional way. Icons dont aim to look
like ordinary life; theyre meant to look like a different
world. They are meant to lift the beholder onto a new plane of existence,
not as an escape from this world, but as an incentive to live in
a new way in this world.
I nourish my
spirit regularly at the Holy Cross Monastery in Rostrevor, which
is a Benedictine monastery. The monks sing the Liturgy of the Hours
very beautifully, it is very, very polished. When you sing, you
are totally concentrated. And you see that while the monks
are singing the Psalms or involved in the Scriptures, their whole
being, not just their attention, is wrapped up in what they are
doing. Holy Cross Monastery also has a few, very tasteful icons.
In some churches its a bit like going into a Victorian parlour,
the ornaments are a bit overdone! I dont like that, but I
think there is a place for church art in moderation, as a means
of bringing our whole being, not just our minds, but our body as
well.
DP: John,
solitude, retreat and meditation have often been held with suspicion
within the Reformed tradition. Would you like to say a little bit
about that? Also, what practices within your tradition explore the
kind of intimacy, and even the kind of mysticism, implicit in what
Paul has just said?
JD: The situation
is changing and I think there has been much cross-fertilisation.
Last August, we did a series of sermons, based on Richard Fosters
book Celebration of Discipline, and were currently
doing a Willow Creek course called An Ordinary Day with Jesus,
which looks at spiritual practices and disciplines that can enable
you to live your life within the consciousness of Christs
presence day by day. Ive had a very positive reaction, which
I actually didnt expect, so thats been quite interesting.
But traditionally, I suppose, spiritual practices were probably
misunderstood to be ends in themselves.
Progressing
in the Christian life is not something we do, it is something God
does in us and thats an immensely liberating discovery. Much
Protestantism and Reformed spirituality labours under the impression
that you have to screw yourself up for this, Ive gotta
do this, Ive gotta do that. And the harder you try,
the more you fail. Disciplines and practices in themselves dont
make you a better person but they put you in a place where God can
work in your life. For me, personally, that was a real discovery,
and I notice pastoring people now its a new idea for many
of them as well.
In the past,
as Protestants, we were restricted to a small number of practices,
most of which were individualistic and personal. As soon as you
became a Christian, there were a couple of things you did. Number
one was you started to have a quiet time, so you bought Bible-reading
notes and sat down with a notebook and asked yourself the questions
and filled it in. That was the practice of all practices. There
were very few communal things. Perhaps the exception to that was
the church prayer meeting, which you were expected to turn up to.
There was a suspicion of anything beyond that because it might be
thought to be salvation by works, instead of actually being a means
of exploring obedience to Christ and of growing in faith. I think
its changing now, but I came from that background.
DP. Paul,
has the Catholic Church learned anything from the Protestant tradition
in terms of spiritual formation and development?
PS: I think
most of all a love for, and openness to, the Scriptures. It really
struck me at the 25th anniversary celebration of the opening of
the Second Vatican Council when Pope John Paul II walked solemnly
through the whole of St Peters Basilica holding an open Bible
in his hand and put it on a special stand in the sanctuary, making
the point that the greatest gift of the Second Vatican Council to
the whole church was the reopening of the Scriptures for everyone.
So I think we have definitely learnt that from the Reformed tradition.
John talked
about commentaries. In my first Ignatian formation, not much, if
anything, was said about reading commentaries, you just read the
text. Now, I spend a lot of time every week reading through commentaries
in preparing a sermon. Weve gained that from the Reformed
tradition.
Also the whole
concept of fellowship. While most Catholics would be
very rigorous and strict about going to church every week, fulfilling
their obligation perhaps, as they would see it, it tended to be
isolated individuals who happened to be standing together, taking
part in a common act of worship. Now, there is much more emphasis
put on fellowship for example, having a cup of tea or coffee
in a hall after services on a Sunday, for people to get together.
DP: John,
what happens in your church collectively? What would you say is
the collective expression of your spiritual formation as a community
of faith?
JD: I suppose
the collective expression would revolve around the need to be at
a service of worship. I remember Ken Newell once saying that the
key thing the church has to offer to the world is the invitation
to come to worship God. That gave me an insight which affects how
I approach worship now. Theres something about being together
in a situation where we hear Gods word corporately, where
we join in praise and intercession for the world and seek to express
something as a group. I think the Reformed Church is trying to work
more at that. Its very difficult to have fellowship in a Presbyterian
church, which up until recent years didnt even have a space
for people to congregate either before or after the service and
where people sat in boxed pews with doors on them! Its really
only more recently that weve actually started to think in
terms of how we design the spaces in which we worship God and about
how we relate to one another within the space as part of that activity.
I think congregations now are much more intentional about how they
use space and the time that they have together in worship.
Another change
for the better, in my view, is the relationship to Scripture. The
Bible was obviously foundational in the Protestant Reformation itself.
I think, though, there was a tendency for that emphasis to lean
towards bibliolatry, towards making the Scriptures an end in themselves.
So that, in Northern Ireland, if you were a minister, you tended
to assume that people would just be interested in the Bible for
its own sake, so you didnt have to work too hard at applying
the lesson. Fortunately, you cant get away with that any more,
which is a good thing.
It also led
to a cerebral relationship with The Book, where the
understanding of the book almost stood in place of an intimate relationship
with Jesus Christ, who is the Living Word about whom this book speaks.
Its central in the Alpha course every lesson rotates
around the issue of how this affects our relationship to Christ.
For me thats a better direction and, I sense, that is what
people are really looking for.
DP: Paul, I
read a piece by the Franciscan writer Richard Rohr recently, saying
that the great need at the moment in Western Christianity is what
he called a return to the heart. What might that mean?
PS: St Francis
of Assisi first invented the crib as a means of seeing, with our
being, the humility and simplicity of the birth of Christ, so I
can see how a Franciscan would be focusing on the heart. I think
in the Catholic tradition the heart has probably been there naturally,
nourished by church art and different devotions that people have
found helpful. We would maybe have the impression, more or less
as John has said, that the Reformed tradition is more cerebral
Bible study, deep exegesis and so on. Maybe what we really need
is balance. The space of a Catholic church, the numinous space
the art, the stained glass windows and the Sacrament which remains
over after the Eucharist has been celebrated, reserved for the sick
and for personal devotion (the little light burning to say its
there) theres something about that which certainly
nourishes the heart. So probably our need is being met to a great
extent.
Since the Second
Vatican Council, more rigorous attention has been has been paid
to exactly what we mean by certain doctrines and to seeing the essential
link between Scripture and doctrine. Pope Benedict says that Scripture,
the word of God, is ultimate and everything else, including the
Pope, is under the word of God.I think we probably need more biblical
scholars. I think it was John Stott, whose works are read by many
Roman Catholics, who said, The greatest enemy to the Church
in this age is anti-intellectualism. There was reference earlier
to hymns with not much content and expressing a very personal piety,
I think the real challenge is intellectualism at the service of
the word, at the service of the people.
DP: Traditionally,
within the Reformed tradition, a Trinitarian spirituality expressed
itself in the doctrines of creation, redemption and sanctification.
What might a holistic spirituality look like in the Reformed Church?
JD: I think
we have honoured a spirituality which reflects a concern for creation.
In some ways the Protestant attitude to the world was largely ethically
based the Christian life was about living in a moral way,
perhaps more than it was about issues of social or environmental
concern. I think, to be fair, through the centuries, key people
in politics, economics and various areas of life from a Reformed
background had a concern for creation, for the world. I think redemption
is perhaps above all other things. The Reformed faith has always
honoured who Jesus was, what he achieved at Calvary and its significance
for us, both as individuals and, to some extent, corporately as
well, seeing the churches redeeming or reconciling their community.
Its there, it might not be brilliant, but its there.
I think emphasis
on the Holy Spirit has been lacking. Len Sweet has an expression
in his book Soul Tsunami, he says Christians settle
for making a difference in the world, when they should be looking
to have a different world. That means looking to the power
of the Holy Spirit to transform us and to change the world. Individually
and corporately we can make a difference, because God the Holy Spirit
is among us. It means being open to and embracing his work, being
willing to allow God to lead you into places you dont want
to go, way out of your comfort zones and all the rest of it. In
terms of Reformed spirituality, we do need to become much more welcoming
to the power and presence of the Holy Spirit finding the
Lord in creation who is already there, already at work trying
to figure out what he is doing, then getting on board in what hes
doing. I think thats where we may be weak and where we really
need to be more open to God in our tradition.
DP: With
that Trinitarian formula in mind, how would that work out in the
Catholic tradition?
PS: I too think
its very important that our spirituality should be Trinitarian.
Somebody said the other day that most Christians are in fact binitarian,
they know the Father and the Son, but they forget the Holy Spirit.
In Ballymena at the moment, Presbyterian, Church of Ireland, Methodist
and Roman Catholic churches have come together and have put on the
Alpha course. Weve just reached the Holy Spirit in
our last session and that is having a very, very powerful impact
in creating what Id call communion, rather than
fellowship. Its very obvious that people are not self-consciously
aware of their own denomination or the denomination of others, but
they are growing very, very conscious of the communion which is
being created amongst them by the Holy Spirit and in view of worshipping
the Father and rejoicing in the salvation won for us by the Son.
That Trinitarian consciousness is very manifest in the Alpha
course. In my preaching and when Im asked to do spontaneous
prayer, I would always try to be deliberately Trinitarian, to make
reference to Father, Son and Holy Spirit, because I think its
absolutely key to walking in authentic faith. God has revealed himself
as Trinity and we have to relate to God as Trinity.
Question
from floor: What is God doing in our churches at the moment?
JD: Some of
the older badges, barriers and concerns are dropping. Most of the
people joining my church are not Presbyterians they could
be Baptist, Brethren, Pentecostal, anything really. I think people
want to go to church and be part of a local Christian community
because they feel they belong, they feel at home there. I think
thats a change. Also, the ability to borrow from one another.
The ability for a Protestant congregation to say, Yes, we
can learn a lot from spiritual disciplines, that is good for us,
we can be open to that, and for Catholic traditions to be
doing the same. There is much more openness to believing that God
is at work in all sorts of places we didnt think he was at
work in before and there is a willingness to embrace that.
DP: And
for you, Paul, what is the Spirit saying to the church, or doing
in the church?
PS: During
Lent last year Desi Maxwell, who teaches in Belfast Bible College,
gave a series of talks on the Pentateuch. Initially, it was just
for my congregation, then I thought why not open it up? Five churches
came on board Church of Ireland, Methodist and a couple of
the Presbyterians. We held the talks in a hotel and the audience
went from about 120 on the first night to about 300. It was from
the communion, or the growing sense of fellowship, that the idea
of the joint Alpha course came about and that has been deepening
the process.
There was a
very tragic death in my parish in May a young fellow was
beaten up and subsequently died. But a lot of good has come from
that, one of those is Prayer for Ballymena. The first meeting was
in West Church Presbyterian, the next in St Patricks Church
of Ireland and the next will be in the Catholic church. Some of
my friends from High Kirk are organising the tea, coffee and traybakes,
because Roman Catholics dont make traybakes!
DP: But
you make a great sandwich!
PS: Harryville
Presbyterian Church, on the other side of the road, provides the
cups, saucers and plates. I have a closer bond with High Kirk than
with Harryville Presbyterian Church, so I was slightly apprehensive
when I phoned the minister. But there wasnt a moment of hesitation,
he just said, Of course! How many do you want? Ill pack
them up and bring them over. Tell me a time and Ill be there.
I think thats an example of how the Spirit is moving and that
were beginning to recognise and respect each other as Christians
from different backgrounds. I think this whole idea of being saved
or coming to faith, or making your faith alive, is something that
Catholics are also beginning to understand.
One of the
points made very clearly at the beginning of our Alpha course
was, If you belong to a particular church, we want you to
stay there, but we hope that as a result of the course, you will
be renewed and will make a difference to your local congregation.
I think we recognise that in all our denominations there are those
who are just going through the motions. In every denomination there
is a need, I would say, for peoples faith to come alive, which
I think is what is meant by being saved or giving
your life to the Lord. Its not the practice or the fact
youve been baptised that makes you a Christian. What makes
you a Christian is when the Spirit really comes to life within you.
Question
from floor: What is the meaning of the Lords request that
we may all be one? What in that resonates in your heart?
JD: I sense
that our understanding of what it means has changed to some extent.
On my journey, through the years, God has brought me from believing
that it would be a terribly bad thing if not a complete denial
of faith to a position of having a hunger and a longing in
my heart to be at one with all those who love the Lord in sincerity,
whatever the badge happens to be above the door.
I cant
talk denominationally, because my denomination is still as much
at sea about this question as its ever been, and I dont
know if that will change substantially in my lifetime. But I think
what has changed over the years for a lot of people, and I attribute
this to the work of the Holy Spirit, is that God places in your
heart a longing which says that you cannot be separate from people
whom God loves. Once you feel that with other people you need to
find some physical way of manifesting it. In our congregation we
have a joint prayer group with members of a local church
its a very small, very tiny, expression of a sense of being
together before God. But from that all sorts of interesting things
have grown. Thats on one level. I dont know how on earth
you sort out the denominational difficulties in this part of the
world.
DP: Paul,
as a Roman Catholic priest, what does that prayer mean?
PS: Jesus
prayer that they may all be one is something that is very deeply
held in my heart. I would understand it as unity, not uniformity.
It would be very dull if everything was just absolutely the same.
I not only enjoy, I actually feel a spiritual need to worship in
other churches from time to time, because it gives me something
I dont get in my own tradition. At the same time, if I were
a Presbyterian, say, I think I would miss the sacramental side of
my own tradition. So I think weve all got different gifts
and insights. Ecumenism is about the sharing of gifts, not the denial
of identity, and certainly not the watering down of doctrine. For
me, unity is a communion in which we respect each other, we receive
each other as brothers and sisters in Christ and yet we can also
celebrate in different ways.
There are many
different ways of responding to the Gospel, but one of the things
I would particularly like to see is what I call the open table.
I would very dearly like when people from other traditions come
to my church to be able to say openly, if you feel drawn by
the Spirit to come forward to partake of the elements of bread and
wine, the body and blood of Christ, then feel free to do so.
And I would like to feel I had the blessing of my Church, which
I dont at the moment, to accept the invitation when I go to
a Church of Ireland or Presbyterian or Methodist church. Just as
we recognise one and the same baptism, so I would also like to see
one table, albeit with differences in the way we celebrate the Lords
Supper. Its still the Lords Supper, however you actually
celebrate it.
DP: Thank
you, both of you, for speaking from the heart.
REV PAUL SYMONDS
and REV JOHN DICKINSON were interviewed by Derek Poole on 4 November
2006, in Armagh, at the Centres conference on Spirituality,
entitled From Here to Eternity.
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